Within the very-online world of 2025, it’s nearly unimaginable to keep away from the saturating presence of podcasters, pundits, and social-media influencers within the “manosphere.” These are individuals who promise males admiration, well being, and success, however who typically have concepts of masculinity that go away males feeling much more wounded and remoted then ever. Jon Macaskill and Will Schneider from Men Talking Mindfulness are devoting themselves to reaching males the place they’re, of their battle, confusion, and eager for lives of which means and connection. On this wide-ranging dialog with former Conscious editor Amber Tucker, Macaskill and Schneider supply a perspective on what mindfulness for males can present in a world that wants genuine males greater than ever. They usually share a imaginative and prescient of what it’s to be a person that’s much less concerning the efficiency of manliness and extra about being genuinely resilient, smart, and related.
Two Paths to Discovering Mindfulness
Amber: I might love to start out by asking about every of your paths to mindfulness. Jon, I do know that you just’re a retired US Navy SEAL Commander, and Will got here from being a yoga trainer and a coach—two paths that lots of people wouldn’t see as meshing naturally collectively. How did you personally uncover mindfulness, and what did it take to combine mindfulness into your lives?
Jon: My path to mindfulness, and I believe Will and I’ve this in frequent, is that it type of got here out of necessity. I had struggled with some anxiousness, with survivor’s guilt, melancholy, and over and above that, as a SEAL, you’re educated to push via ache—I might like to say ignore stress, however I believe generally we even convey stress onto ourselves after which simply preserve going.
However ultimately, you already know, that strategy broke me. I wasn’t capable of deal with it anymore, bodily, mentally, and emotionally. After I received to a degree the place all that was at a top—the place I used to be fighting the post-traumatic stress and sleepless nights—I had mindfulness launched to me by a counselor. I first laughed at him as a result of I believed that, being a particular operator, I didn’t want mindfulness and meditation. He type of flipped the script on me and he stated, “Effectively, what if I had a tablet that I might give to you that may change your efficiency?” As particular operators, we’re all the time searching for one thing that’s going to enhance our efficiency. And as you might guess, that tablet wasn’t a tablet in any respect. It was mindfulness and meditation.
So, as a result of it was bought to me as a “efficiency enhancement,” I attempted it. And lengthy story brief, I attempted for a number of months, and it did assist me to deal with the stress and anxiousness higher. I received that efficiency enchancment that he had promised me, however I additionally was capable of handle stress. At first I didn’t belief it, however it gave me an actual shot at not simply slowing down, but additionally being current. What I had perceived as a type of weak point, practising mindfulness and meditation, wasn’t that in any respect. It was a energy, and it gave me these instruments to face what I’d been avoiding. It gave me the instruments to manage my feelings higher. I wouldn’t say that I’m an professional on regulating my feelings, however I’m higher. And to reconnect: reconnect with my household, reconnect with buddies. I believe most significantly, the flexibility to actually join with my genuine self.
To combine that into my life, it took some self-discipline to do persistently. It’s straightforward to do mindfulness or to be conscious and observe meditation a few times and perhaps a few days in a row after which drop off. However by staying constant, making it a every day observe, it’s modified how I lead, how I father, and finally how I dwell.
Will: I actually discovered meditation first, even earlier than yoga, again round 2006. I used to be at some extent in my life the place I simply moved to New York Metropolis, and I used to be pursuing life as an actor right here within the metropolis: auditioning, coaching, doing plenty of theater, I began doing tv. I simply wished to be extra current, and I additionally wanted to handle the anxiousness that comes with efficiency. I began with Transcendental Meditation (TM) and it began to assist. Actually, it was difficult to take a seat and meditate twice a day for 20 minutes with the TM by myself, not having a bunch that I’m meditating with, or not having the web alternatives like we do these days. It was very irritating to start with. I’m having all these totally different experiences, my thoughts simply retains wandering, and I don’t really feel like I’m doing something. A few yr and a half later, after the sputtering begins with attempting to work with meditation, I actually turned extra constant. It helped when I discovered yoga across the similar time, particularly yoga asana observe. There was this complete mindful movement inside me, attempting to deal with my thoughts. On the similar time, I used to be taking good care of my physique. It felt like, That is my observe. It’s been an unimaginable profit to me. It nonetheless is, each day that I observe. Now I’ve been with the [Men Talking Mindfulness] present, and the work that I do with coaching, and I incorporate all of those expertise into what I’m educating right here now.
Beginning the Males Speaking Mindfulness Podcast
Amber: Let’s discuss Men Talking Mindfulness, the podcast that you just co-host. It’s described as tackling tough topics like loneliness, trauma, habit, the unhealthy parts of masculinity. Might you discuss a bit bit about a few of the most transformative conversations that you just’ve had? How have your company or listeners highlighted the ability of mindfulness and addressing these sorts of challenges?
Will: We’ve actually “attacked” mindfulness from so many various angles! And with Jon and I each being practitioners, we’ve plenty of nice authors that come on the present. The entire present has impacted my life, as a result of I’m a pupil first—the professional, if you’ll, of mindfulness who’s all the time studying. For me, a few of the ones that actually stick out have been No More Mr. Nice Guy with Dr. Robert Glover. Studying his e book and seeing what the entire “good man” factor is, and deconstructing why this complete nice-guy way of living just isn’t the way in which to totally embrace all the ability of your masculinity, was actually profound for me.
And we had Jon Eldredge on the present, New York Instances bestseller. I liked his e book, Wild at Heart. That dialog with him included understanding the three core ideas that dwell within the soul of masculinity: all the time having a way of journey, having that relationship in your life, and having a battle to struggle, having your mission. I simply got here again from a two-week journey to Peru, which is kind of an journey. I’m nonetheless engaged on the connection half, however I undoubtedly have the opposite two fairly synced up. I preserve all of the books that I’ve learn for the present! One after the opposite of our company have simply been so useful. A whole lot of them come again to the core ideas of mindfulness, being current, permitting that presence to gentle up your biology, and the nice biology that we’ve that actually makes us, like, these great human beings that we will be if we let go of the stress and anxiousness.
Jon: One dialog that’s leaping to thoughts proper now could be our dialog with the 2 Eds, Dr. Ed Adams and Ed Frauenheim. They co-wrote Reinventing Masculinity, the place they challenged the concept that males have to suit into this inflexible mould that you just’re both robust otherwise you’re not a person. That stood out to me, and it struck a chord with our viewers as a result of we heard from males who stated issues like, “I believed I used to be damaged as a result of I didn’t match the stereotype,” or “Now I understand there’s energy in being genuine and being who I’m.”
We additionally had Jocko Willink on, fellow retired Navy SEAL. There have been a few highly effective moments in that discuss balancing depth and presence. There’s lots of people who suppose you possibly can’t be intense and current concurrently, and the way mindfulness can really make you a stronger chief. We’ve had Dr. Mark Gordon on. And Mark shared about all these totally different sorts of groundbreaking insights on the brain-body connection. He’s a neuroendocrinologist. We’ve had Dr. Rob Kelly come on thrice. And he’s talked about objective and recovering from habit. We’ve had multi-time Olympic champion, Apolo Ono, come on to mirror about how mindfulness formed his Olympic profession and his transition afterward. We simply had Dan Millman on to clarify The Way of the Peaceful Warrior, his e book.
We’ve even had Congressman Tim Ryan on to speak about bringing mindfulness into politics. We’ve had Steven Kotler on to share how movement science connects on to efficiency and presence, and the way that’s all underpinned by mindfulness. So sorry, plenty of identify drop in there, however like Will stated, this present has modified the lives of lots of our viewers, however it’s additionally modified our lives. Now we have realized a lot about mindfulness, the way it’s tied into management, the way it’s tied into wealth, how it’s tied into well being, how it’s tied into nearly the whole lot that we do and it’s modified us for the higher. It’s my spiel.
Will: Yeah, we’re just like the little guinea pigs for the present. We simply attempt stuff on, discuss it. So it’s been fairly enjoyable to be the scholars and the academics in what we’ve created.
The place to Begin If You’re Curious About Mindfulness
Amber: That’s unimaginable. Thanks a lot for each sharing a few of the breadth of various voices and backgrounds and areas of experience that you’ve got on the podcast. Positively many acquainted names there for the Mindful reading viewers, and in addition plenty of new names. So I believe that’s fairly thrilling. You have been simply pertaining to… what listeners have shared with you about how the podcast has helped them to find mindfulness—perhaps help for the primary time, begin to construct a every day observe, strengthen relationships, even assist to avoid wasting marriages and plenty of different outcomes that I’m positive you’ve heard from folks. I’m wondering: Why do you suppose the observe of mindfulness is resonating so strongly with so many males, significantly on this second in time?
Jon: I’ll go on that one first, Will, in case you’re cool with that. What I discover attention-grabbing is that mindfulness, in case you actually return in historical past, it resonated with males. We had the monks who introduced it into the world in a number of other ways, however we additionally had warriors, these warriors that males immediately examine.
We learn concerning the Spartans, we examine samurai, and not directly they practiced meditation earlier than they went on the battlefield in order that they may very well be current, in order that they may very well be calm. Reasonably than bumping chests and smelling these smelling salts earlier than they went out, they calmed themselves down.
I believe males are realizing that this playbook of suck it up or man up, it doesn’t work anymore. And males are realizing that we are able to present vulnerability and authenticity as a result of suck it up or man up results in damaged marriages. It results in psychological well being issues or challenges, and it leaves plenty of males struggling in silence.
I believe mindfulness resonates as a result of it doesn’t ask you to surrender toughness. Lots of people suppose that in case you observe mindfulness, that you just’re giving up toughness, and also you don’t. I believe it actually lets you redefine what toughness seems to be like. It takes actual energy to be current, to really feel your feelings and to manage these feelings. I don’t wish to “management them,” however regulate them. And it additionally takes actual energy and braveness to face your challenges with out numbing out, with out alcohol, with out medicine. In case you regularly numb these challenges, you’re not going to return out of them. And that’s why I believe guys just like the names that I discussed earlier than, like Jaco, Olympians like Apollo, these big-time thought leaders like Steven Kotler, and congressmen like Tim Ryan—I believe that’s what they’re discovering worth on this proper now.
Will: I believe the world is simply experiencing a degree of chaos that it’s not used to, as a result of what I’m seeing, I’m positive we’re all feeling it, is due to the infiltration of expertise in our lives, like all over the place, with social media, with the speed of messaging that you just get via, whether or not it’s textual content or e-mail or Instagram or no matter platform you’re on, it’s identical to message, message, and message. There appears to be a larger demand for our consideration in so many various locations.
Mindfulness is that this pure steadiness that’s coming into society, as a result of the whole lot has its reverse. If chaos is occurring, what’s the equalizer? I really feel for human beings, plenty of it’s mindfulness. How will we turn into not so simply triggered? How will we handle our emotions? And mindfulness helps us to do this.
I believe additionally for males specifically, the way in which that we’ve labored historically for the reason that industrial revolution has modified dramatically, as effectively. It requires an entire different set of expertise that we didn’t have to activate if we have been simply doing a daily nine-to-five within the manufacturing unit. Additionally the roles within the household have modified. The household dynamics have modified. Now we have two working mother and father fairly often, and what does that require? That requires much more communication. How are we speaking? Mindfulness for males helps males to grasp themselves on a extra deep emotional degree. In order that they’re not a slave to their feelings, not so simply annoyed or anxious or wired, and actually being more practical in no matter surroundings they’re in, whether or not it’s the household, whether or not it’s work, whether or not it was with their youngsters, whether or not it’s some kind of neighborhood occasion. So mindfulness helps the world in so some ways, however males for positive, as a result of these are expertise that weren’t taught in class. I imply, a few of them at the moment are, however no one over 20 years outdated or 25 has actually been taught these expertise in class, and individuals are searching for this place to study these instruments. That’s one factor that we’re doing, and it’s one factor that each one the mindfulness academics on the market are doing—serving to folks to combine these instruments of their lives to allow them to cope with this new society that we’re in.
Amber: I actually recognize each of you talking to that, particularly with the predominance of instruments like mindfulness and meditation seeming to be marketed towards ladies at the moment. It’s good to have a reminder that that hasn’t all the time been the case. And really mindfulness is a software that’s for everyone, no matter how we’ve been educated, our gender, or something like that. It could possibly profit all of us.
Jon: I simply wish to leap in simply with one factor. I’m glad you stated that piece. As a result of the company that we talked about are all males. I believe each single considered one of them that we’ve talked about have been all males and much more particularly, white males. We’ve [had a wide variety of guests on the show]. Theresa Larson is an efficient buddy of ours. We’ve had her on to speak about being a conscious mom, which doesn’t sound like one thing that may go on a males’s present, however we want males to grasp what a mom goes via. We’ve had Ali and Atman Smith and Andrés González from the Holistic Life Foundation. We’ve had Uma Naidu to return on and discuss mindful eating. She’s a nutritionist. So I do wish to make it possible for we seize that the present is a males’s present, however we’ve plenty of ladies listeners, and we’ve plenty of ladies company, as effectively.
Amber: Yeah, thanks for that. You’ve had Amishi Jha as effectively, I believe, proper?
Jon: Sure, she and General Walt Piatt.
Amber: That should’ve been a strong dialog.
Will: Oh, yeah. They spoke so clearly, and it’s superior to have such a decorated general, like actually being an enormous advocate for mindfulness, as a result of it impacts something you do, no matter what you’re attempting to do with it, it has an unimaginable influence. And I’m glad increasingly individuals are waking as much as this.
Many Totally different Methods to Strategy Mindfulness for Males
Amber: Yeah, bringing it into these contexts just like the military the place folks each actually need it for efficiency, and in addition only for psychological well being and all the opposite good issues that mindfulness may also help with. You’ve had a variety of very influential company, best-selling authors, Olympians, enormous enterprise leaders, politicians, many different folks. And the way do you suppose that these numerous voices are contributing to your mission of adjusting the narrative round masculinity and psychological well being for males? Among the folks that you just talked with in your present is probably not mindfulness academics as such, however they’re nonetheless selling information and views that might match underneath the umbrella of mindfulness. Is that an correct method of characterizing them?
Will: Yeah, I believe the way in which we’ve approached the present is that there are such a lot of totally different angles you possibly can strategy mindfulness. We convey on specialists to assist us remedy a selected downside, or give us some perception into one thing, or to convey consciousness to one thing that may be useful in our lives.
From the masculinity perspective, we’re taught by our fathers, our coaches, our uncles, our brothers, simply to be robust. However the twenty first century is demanding larger expertise, and actually that massive ability is being extra emotionally clever. So we’re attempting to open that dialog and present how extremely highly effective it’s if you turn into extra conscious of that complete, your thoughts, your feelings and your actions, how one can actually begin to change issues. It simply takes a bit little bit of observe. The objective for us is only for males to have happier, more healthy, extra peaceable lives due to what they’re studying from our present.
Jon: Yeah, and I’ll add to that in…we’ve received this swath of various company coming to speak about totally different approaches. I believe males typically have a look at these guys, or perhaps they have a look at me and Will and different males that they appear as much as, and so they say, This man has all of it collectively. What’s unsuitable with me? They usually hear these excessive achievers admit that they battle, too. It normalizes the dialog, exhibits that mindfulness is for everybody. Irrespective of your background, regardless of your definition of success, we’re all human beings and all of us have struggles. And it doesn’t matter what your battle is, mindfulness just isn’t essentially going to alleviate that battle, however it’s going to assist in managing it.
Will: I imply, one of many ideas of compassion is frequent humanity. We create an area for frequent humanity so folks can hook up with different human beings which have been struggling, as effectively. One factor I’ve seen with all the nice leaders we’ve had on the present is that with a purpose to entry that greatness, vulnerability and authenticity are important. It’s important to take a real stock of your self with a purpose to entry and unleash that subsequent degree of greatness.
What’s Forward?
Amber: If we glance forward, what do you hope that the long-term influence of Males Speaking Mindfulness will probably be?
Jon: My hope that we assist to shift the tradition so folks see vulnerability, presence, and compassion as strengths, not weaknesses. Let’s say in 10 years, extra individuals are educating their youngsters mindfulness. Extra leaders are main with that emotional intelligence. Perhaps corporations are hiring extra folks primarily based on their emotional intelligence and never simply their resume. And fewer individuals are struggling in silence. Then I really feel that we’ve completed our job. Each one that listens and modifications, even in a small method, impacts their household, their office, their neighborhood. Over time, these ripples add as much as perhaps altering a society, perhaps altering the nation, altering the world.
Will: I don’t have way more to say than what Jon has stated. It’s thrilling to see the influence we’re already having. If we’re capable of have this type of ubiquitous influence with the boys which can be plugging in now, it’s thrilling to see the place it might go. It’s only a matter of amplifying this platform and sharing our platform for different folks to plug in. We’re simply nonetheless holding house for folks to journey via, get what they want and go on the market and be extra conscious and dwell extra compassionately and be higher leaders and be liable for how they’re displaying up on the earth. I see my relationships in my fast household and my fast buddies altering. I believe we’ve one thing to do with that, it’s good to see that influence.
Amber: Effectively, I believe in case you’re really beginning to change minds and lives inside your circles and your loved ones, that’s nearly as massive as altering the world, actually. For my part, that’s deep change. These are individuals who wouldn’t pretend altering in entrance of you.
Will: Yeah, that’s true.
Amber: I believe it’s actually highly effective and actually invaluable how a lot you’ve grown what you’re doing and all of the folks that you just’re reaching. So thanks for all of the work that you just do. I’d love to complete off on a word of serving to perhaps a couple of extra folks, a couple of extra males to find mindfulness. While you’re speaking with different males who could be new to mindfulness, may wanna give it a attempt, is there a primary observe that you’ve got, like a kind of observe or an train that you just advocate simply to provide them a primary style of what that seems like and assist them get began?
Will: Yeah, we’ve been main this meditation course via Males Speaking Mindfulness for the final yr and a half. We’re really gonna launch a brand new course coming quickly. What we’ve seen from all of the stuff that we studied from males is the very first thing that you would be able to actually do to assist or have a major influence in your life is discovering your breath and slowing down your breath and attending to know your breath. I can’t consider the unimaginable influence in just some weeks of attending to know your breath and dealing together with your breath a bit bit via totally different respiration practices. The sunshine bulbs begin going off, as a result of if you get calm and you start to make use of your breath as a software to get calm, you begin to see: Oh my God, that’s anxiousness. Why do I’ve so many expectations? Oh my God, I’m a perfectionist. The entire world begins to alter.
We discuss concerning the organic impacts on a regular basis about mindfulness, however attending to calm drops us into who we’re, our biology, the second, and we are able to begin to discover a new path ahead. And it’s easy and it’s free, and you are able to do it on a regular basis in as little as 30 seconds or a minute, or you are able to do it for an hour.
Jon: I might add on with the breath—completely absolutely consider that’s an incredible place to start out—however I’ll say, together with his yoga courses, and males will are available in there and so they wish to be good on day one. And I believe plenty of males do the identical factor with meditation. I did the identical. It’s important to begin easy. One of many largest errors males make is pondering that they should meditate for an hour a day on day one, or have some good setup, proper? However taking simply 5 sluggish acutely aware breaths, like Will stated, everytime you really feel wired or overwhelmed, that may assist you to get to calm. That alone can shift your nervous system from that fight-or-flight into that calm and readability. From there, you possibly can discover longer, extra in-depth meditations. And we’ve shared a few of these on our present. Now we have some on our YouTube channel. However begin small and keep constant. It’s very very similar to the fitness center. In case you go into the fitness center, and also you crush a two-hour exercise and then you definately don’t work out once more for 2 weeks, that two-hours exercise was for naught. In case you sit down and meditate and also you meditate for an hour after which don’t meditate once more for weeks, that meditation was for naught. You keep devoted and also you do 10 minutes, even 5 minutes a day. You keep in step with it. You’re gonna get extra from that. So I say begin small, begin easy, and keep constant.
Will: We discuss change and transformation, and the C phrase comes up each single time. Each visitor says: Be constant. Choose one factor. And repeat that factor for weeks. Get the arrogance and the braveness. It’s been plenty of enjoyable to have the ability to do this and find a way do it successfully and see lives rework.
The MTM Origin Story + Last Ideas
Amber: Is there the rest that you just wished to say or simply briefly discuss that I didn’t point out earlier than we shut issues up right here?
Will: I believe to assist anyone that’s like studying this text and desires to start out someplace or has been mindfulness-curious for some time, or perhaps they’ve tried and dabbled and struggled. I wish to say: Get round different folks which can be doing it or join a group. That group vitality round mindfulness could be very highly effective and really encouraging and also you’re extra more likely to present up. Once more, that frequent humanity could be very useful for folks since you don’t really feel so alone. You don’t really feel silly or unaccomplished or unsuccessful. You’re like, Oh, effectively, you’re fighting that, too. Okay, that is simply how it’s generally. So I believe that’s one factor I believe folks ought to know as they go on this journey.
Jon: I’ll throw in there simply type of the origin story of the present. Now we have a mutual buddy, a navy member who launched us to 1 one other. He heard that I used to be into the mindfulness house, and he had simply completed a retreat with Will. What was it completed in Peru, Will? I don’t know.
Will: No, I used to be in Bermuda, his identify is Scott Tucker. We received to provide a bit shout out to Scott Tucker however yeah, we’re in Bremuda, however go forward, Jon.
Jon: Okay, so Scott had simply completed this retreat in Bermuda, comes again, he’s like, Hey, you’ve received to satisfy this man Will, introduces us. I’m going via my navy transition, so I’m getting launched to an entire lot of individuals in several industries. Scott introduces me to Will, and I’ve a telephone name with him and on the finish of the dialog, Will says, Okay, effectively, when are we going to speak subsequent? And each time we spoke, Will would say, Hey, when are we going to speak subsequent? So we have been having these telephone calls as soon as a month about mindfulness and meditation, speaking about our revelations, our challenges, new practices that we’ve discovered, no matter, after which COVID hit. I used to be watching Will on Instagram, and since Will is a yoga teacher, plenty of his work needed to go digital. So I reached out to Will, I used to be like, Hey, man, what if we began a meditation and mindfulness Instagram Stay the place we mainly simply have those self same telephone calls that we have been having, however we’ve them on Instagram Stay? So we tried it, and we had like, six folks tune in for the primary few exhibits. We found out how you can rip the Instagram Stay audio off and create the podcast. We thought perhaps we’d get extra listeners as a podcast. So in case your readers return and take heed to a few of our first exhibits, you’ll hear that the audio is method worse. Now we document with skilled mics and headphones and considerably of a studio. Our rooms are arrange like studios, however it began actually tough. It began as an concept that spawned from COVID basically and has been happening for 5 years since then. It’s gone via a number of iterations of various audio software program and producers and totally different video software program. However we’ve come a good distance, and in and of itself, the present is a mindfulness observe. We take note of modifications. In order that’s a fast down and soiled dump of our origin story, if you’ll, if you’d like it to incorporate the story in any respect.
Amber: Thanks for filling in that hole, Jon. I believe there have been 1000’s of podcasts born throughout the pandemic, and also you’re one of many ones that has survived, and I’m positive that all the mindfulness that goes into it’s a massive think about that.
Will: Yeah, and I believe it’s additionally one factor that’s actually helped us preserve the torch lit is us working collectively. I don’t know if this may be robust to do alone, as a result of it’s a protracted haul to get the place we’re. Jon and I encourage one another, preserve one another within the area. Now we’re 5 years later having a broader influence. Now we have a crew that’s serving to us to develop, as effectively. So it’s simply superior to see the place it’s immediately.
Jon: Based on Feed Spot, which is a rating of sorts of podcasts within the class of mindfulness for 2025, we have been ranked quantity three on the earth by iHeartRadio. We have been listed as one of many high 10 mindfulness podcasts within the nation. And globally, we’re within the high 1.5% of podcasts worldwide. So fairly pleased with that. We’ve come a good distance, and we haven’t arrived. We’re gonna proceed to press.
Will: Yeah, thanks a lot, for actual. It’s a giant assist to get this on the market.
Amber: Thanks each. It’s been so great to collaborate, wherever we are able to over the past couple of years. I’ve actually loved it and appreciated it after we get to do issues collectively. I can’t wait to see what’s subsequent for every of you and for Males Speaking Mindfulness.
